- Zoller, Robert E.
- Robert Zoller | The Classical Astrologer
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Is it possible for someone to do astrology and yet for there to be no element of magic in it? I'm talking about astrology which is valid, which works. No, I think that astrology is part of the magical endeavor. One of the mistakes that the New-Age practitioners fall into is an unwitting complicity in secularization and demystification, which is part of the reductionism of the present day.
Astrology is either reduced to psychology - which is an untenable hypothesis, really, because you can't show how it's reducible to the mind, you can only assert that it is. Or some people try to reduce it to a natural science. I mean that, in an individual case, you can show that the state you're in at the present time is coincident with an astrological cause, but the link between the star and the subjective state is a mysterious one.
I, personally, am of the opinion that the only way this sort of thing becomes clearer is through a change in the consciousness of the practitioner. It's not enough just to have a change of attitude; I'm speaking of a radical change that is possible to effect through yoga or through activities which have an effect on the psyche analogous to yoga.
I think that, within the heart, there is a fountain, and from that fountain flow seven streams.
Zoller, Robert E.
Those seven streams are the antecedents of the planetary powers. This affects matter; this whole process of the flowing of the seven streams from the fountain is in some sense substantial, material. But this flowing forth is generally unrecognized, so that most of the time what happens is that we are conscious of the effects of the planets and stars on the psyche yet only dimly aware that, somehow or other, the psyche and the external events are related.
Exactly how that's the case, I really don't know. I'm rather suspicious of people who think this problem of how the unmanifest "energies" which flow from the heart become astrological influences and ultimately become embodied in natural things has been solved.
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There is mystery involved with this process, and I'm torn, myself, over this whole mystery business. On the one hand, I'm attracted by the mystery; on the other, I'm trying my darnedest to solve it! If I ever really did, I don't know quite frankly what I'd do with the solution!
I doubt that there is human evolution, first of all. I observe my own behaviour and find myself making the same kinds of silly mistakes all the time, having the same sorts of addictions - fortunately no drug addictions or anything like that, but in terms of leaning towards certain kinds of social interaction, or to a certain intellectual efforts and interests, things of that sort - there's a consistency in who and what I am, and that makes me recognisable, both to myself and to people around me.
So I'm personally of the opinion as opposed to the knowledge that God has given man free will, but man doesn't seem to want to use it much. But - although the vast majority might be stuck in a recurrent cycle, it only requires one person to have broken the cycle in order for evolution towards whatever one wants to call it God-realisation, enlightenment, whatever to be valid as a possibility?
Christ died for our sins, I'm not Christ. I've goofed many times, I make the same mistakes and don't seem to be able to stop. I don't lie to myself any more about that. And while what you're saying is true - it only takes one person to do it, to show that it can be done and perhaps show the way to do it - being an optimistic kind of guy though people think that I'm overly pessimistic and negative, I have been in my time a very optimistic sort of fellow - I have looked for those people to whom you refer, and have found usually that their feet are made of the same clay as my own.
It's a currently-held, and zealously-held, opinion among a great many people that there is such a thing as evolution - because people need hope. I suppose it's not wise to mock the common opinion, but if you ask me the truth about my opinion regarding this subject - I have doubts about human evolution.
I have doubts about the whole evolutionary concept as a whole, even Darwinian evolution. One of the problems I have with the concept of evolution is that the word itself is used in an equivocal sort of fashion.
When Steiner writes about evolution, he has a different concept than Darwin had, or Herbert Spencer had. The new-age evolution seems to be dominated by theosophical interpretations of what evolution is all about.
I'm not quite sure what people mean when they talk about evolution, but there are very few people who are willing to torture the subject in this way - to say, 'Well - what does it really mean? I'm of the opinion, again, that you can't make much headway in terms of thought unless you know what it is you are talking about and apply the same words in a consistent fashion sufficiently long enough to arrive at a rational conclusion.
Occasionally the solution arises as a result of intuition, which seems to solve conundrums which the reason runs into; but the problem I have with intuition is that it is like God - it makes its own mind up as to when it is going to manifest and when it's not, so an awful lot of the time I'm left in the dark with my own reason.
Given the problems and paradoxes that attend it, do you feel that astrology actually helps people? Or is it, in the ultimate analysis, simply fiddling whilst Rome burns? I think it can be fiddling while Rome burns; I think that it can be of tremendous service, too, if it is properly practiced.
The problem that I see - and I'm the veteran of many, many arguments about this - is that most of us get involved with astrology for the wrong reasons. We get involved with it either for purely solipsistic interests of one sort or another or for purely egotistical interests.
My point is that New-Age astrology often seems to reinterpret the injunction "know thyself" as meaning that, somehow, one's own subconscious is the cause of everything; whereas egotism doesn't care about first causes - it merely seeks to exploit all existing things for its own gratification.
Solipsism and egotism are two wrong but common motivations for getting involved with astrology. The seeker either thinks that he will find himself to be God and henceforth enjoy mystic cosmic bliss, or he seeks power regardless of the hierarchies of being, the consequences, or anything else. I am certainly one of those people who came into astrology from the egotistical point of view.
I was interested in astrology because I was interested in magic; I was interested in magic because I wanted power, and I wanted power for myself. I was willing to cut a deal with God or whatever powers might exist to get a little bit of power, because I was such a powerless wretch that I needed something to make myself feel as though I was doing something significant in the world.
I'd been systematically frustrated and teased, the butt of something like a cosmic joke; I was constantly confronted by my own impotence, and at the same time, I had intuitions of glory, which always seemed to be, like the food of Tantalus, a little bit out of reach.
I'm presently of the opinion that what is required in order to realize this kind of endeavor - the magical endeavor - is what the old occultists used to call "dignification": You have to become worthy of it. And that entails a major change in the level of consciousness.
But to answer your question about astrology more directly: Astrology, for me, is an indication of God's will. God created the cosmos, the lights, the firmament, and all the rest of that sort of stuff for purposes, for signs and times. In the final analysis, there is only one will - and mine is not that will. So, if I can conform myself to that will and work in accordance with it, perhaps there's a chance that I can achieve those goals that I was referring to.
Astrology might help me to do that, or at least it might help me to recognize that my efforts, ultimately, are not good enough - there's something larger that has to come into the picture. So, to the degree to which you become humbled by astrology and scared of astrology and realize your own incompetence and insufficiency, I think that you arrive at the first step from which real spiritual work can begin.
That's my current opinion on the subject. If astrology leads us to that realization, it has done a major service for mankind. Astrology also, I think, can do service to mankind by showing that things happen in their own times - that the individual human will sometimes appears to be capable of making things happen before their times, but most of the time what people do just nuances, fine-tunes, or twists a little bit the way things actually happen.
Two things come to mind here. One is John Frawley's experience, where he was getting good results with predicting the outcome of football matches, sometimes betting small amounts. After he made successful predictions on a TV show, some people asked him to predict results so they could bet serious money, and, in his words, he "did disastrously" and only started getting the predictions right when the "serious money" had disappeared from the equation and he was doing it for fun again.
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Yes, I think this is one of the things that we contemporary astrologers have lost. Not just astrologers but also contemporary people who are involved with magic, with alchemy, Kabbalah, and things of that sort.
As a result of the Enlightenment, as a result of our cynicism and humanism, we have excised God from the picture. That, I think, is a big mistake.
Not only did Lilly say what you quoted, but most traditional practitioners of a non-Western art have a serious divine element in the work that they do. They don't conceptualize it as psychology; they conceptualize it as substance, or they conceptualize it as deity, or spirit of some sort, and they have a certain amount of humility.
One of the lessons I've been learning in connection with astrology is the importance of humility, the importance of subordinating the individual will to this higher will.
This has not been an easy lesson for me, and I won't claim I've got it down yet, but I at least think that it's something that should be done. You go to them with a problem, and they begin their analysis with certain questions, and then they get out their cowrie beads and do a divination. At the beginning of the divination, and before every move in the divination, there is a prayer.
Now, contemporary occultism is quite capable of taking over the methods of the santero, or any other traditional practitioner, and keeping the strict technical aspects of what they do to arrive at their answers whilst, at the same time, leaving out the prayers.
When Moslems do this - excise the pagan prayers of the Ifa from their geomancy - they don't leave it at that: They substitute the Ifa pagan prayers and sacrifices with Koranic verses and Koranic practices of some sort, which are regarded as being equivalent in some way to what they have excised.
But when contemporary Westerners do the same thing, they want to find, if possible, a mathematical law that they can use instead of having any prayers at all. So, they try to reduce the whole thing to binary mathematics or to some sort of totally secular and scientific endeavor that the individual human mind can do, despite the state of the individual operator.
It's an old question in the West. Albertus Magnus and Thomas Aquinas apparently struggled over it with regard to the Mass - the concept of ex opera operantis or ex opera operato 'it works because of the operator' or 'it works because it has been performed' dealt with the matter of why the Mass worked. Was it because of the precedent set by Christ's death and resurrection, or was it because of the character and quality of the priest?
From a cynical point of view perhaps from a wise point of view , the Catholic solution to this was that it was the former rather than the latter i. I suppose this wisdom consisted in the recognition that, if it required real purity on the part of any of us, nothing would ever be accomplished.
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With the astrologers I've talked to, there is, as I'm sure you can imagine, a spectrum of opinion: At one extreme, there are people who think that the whole of astrology is a simple set of procedures which could ultimately be turned into a computer program without losing anything essential; at the other extreme, there are, amongst others, Geoffrey Cornelius and Nick Campion, both of whom talk about occasions when the right reading has been derived from the wrong chart.
Where would you position yourself? I've been bitten, at one time or another, by the same parasite that bites those people who think that astrology can be reduced to a mathematical science. I have to confess that, even now, there is something I find appealing about that idea.
What is appealing about it, I think, comes down to inflation - the idea that "I can do something without anybody else permitting me to do it, without subordinating myself to anybody or anything. I think it always falls flat on its face, because there is a faculty of the human mind that is a kind of wild card.
Maybe it's a faculty of more than the human mind, perhaps a faculty of the way being operates as a whole. Chesterton's "God as anarchist. A cop infiltrates this band and finds out that it is run by some fat fellow who is always a step ahead of the game - the fat fellow turns out to be God.
So, Chesterton is portraying God as the ultimate anarchist. The justification for that point of view, in my opinion, is that, although there are laws of the universe, sometimes for seemingly inexplicable reasons these laws don't work. In this film, the Cheyenne were beset by troubles from the white man, and the shaman determined that some sort of big magic had to be done to fix the situation, to rectify the laws of nature and protect the Cheyenne.
He decided that he would take himself and his assistant, Dustin Hoffman, up to some holy mountain - a long, arduous trip - and then perform some big magic on top of the mountain, and the inevitable result was that the status quo would be restored.
So, they climbed up this big mountain and performed these elaborate rites, invoked the ancestors and all the proper spirits. They waited for the results, and there were no results. So, finally, he just turned to Dustin Hoffman and said: To some degree, I guess that's true. But it's also, as I see it, indicative of the pattern of reliance upon science; scientific solutions are not invariably reliable.
The problem is that, in those instances where these solutions don't come up with the goods, people do them over again, or they change the circumstances a bit and deny that it ever failed. So, rationally, I can't get behind the idea that astrology could be reduced to nothing more than a computer program. The human mind is capable of nuances that computers are not yet capable of and, I hope, will never be capable of.
Medieval Astrology now has quite a number of dedicated and competent practitioners who know firsthand its practicality and depth.
Further development and discovery in this field will continue as a result of new translations and the contributions of new translators such as Ben Dykes. Even though the interest in Hellenistic Astrology is of more recent date, it too has a growing number of students. Soon there will be skilled practitioners of Hellenistic astrology trained by Schmidt.
It is my perception that the time has come for a rapprochement between these two central schools of traditional astrological thought. Familiarity with both schools promises to be helpful in fostering the development of each. And just as Schmidt and I have profited from our renewed acquaintance, I believe that sometime in the not too distance future there can be a reunion of Medieval and Hellenistic Astrology.
More information on the upcoming Conclave can be found here. Robert Zoller 24 April More information on the upcoming Conclave can be found here. How are they to be recognized? I recently read an article by an astrologer who claimed that Aquarius will get rid of greed, selfishness, war and all kinds of blights.
Is the mere idea of the Age of Aquarius enough for us to deny everything we know about the signs? Aquarius is the celestial sign which is masculine, solid, anthropomorphic, somewhat damp, single.
It is mute, quite cold, free, upward-trending, feminizing, unchanging, base, with few offspring, the cause of troubles arising from athletic training, carrying burdens, or work in hard materials, an artisan, public.
Men born under this sign are malicious, haters of their own families, incorrigible, self-willed, deceitful, tricky, concealing everything, misanthropic, godless, accusers, betrayers of reputations and the truth, envious, petty, occasionally generous because of flow of water , uncontrollable. As a whole this sign is wet. Personally I find both descriptions ludicrous in thier hyperbole, but in essence there is much to reflect upon, once you get past the leprous bit.
It is noteworthy that many cultures speak of a distant Golden Age, set far beyond the mists of time. Many predict a Golden Age in the future, often with no date to mark the ingress.
In most cases, humanity has to make the right choices in order for it to occur. The Moon is in the 7th House for two hours every day.
Such is the power of popular culture if the timing is right: Perhaps its little more than a case of successful marketing. Again It seems the only way we have of determining when the New Age begins or ends is by studying what happens and how people react to it.
The 20th Century has often been referred to as the age of alienation and existential angst.
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Revolutions were rife, toppling the Czar and the Emperor of China, both replaced by dictatorial Communism. Feudal Japan was overwhelmed by the country best known for its cult of rugged individualism.
The two world wars seem far more Aquarian than Piscean. Is chemical warfare a Pisces thing or an Aquarian one?
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What about nuclear bombs? Most writers on the Age of Aquarius are very upbeat.
The jargon is usually similar. Love will guide the stars and so on. You can read the whole article http: During the Piscean Age, the benefic Jupiter ruled the angles. Jupiter ruled both Pisces on the 1st and Sagittarius on the 10th, and thus, while there was confusion of hierarchical religious institutions and political institutions and while this inevitably led to hypocrisy, the Age was nevertheless one in which truth and philosophy mattered to men.
The Piscean Age will, as this Aquarian Age unfolds, be seen as a halcyon period of semi-respite from the essentially malefic and spiritually destructive nature of life.
In the Aquarian Age, the malefics once again rule the angles and with them returns the natural severity of worldly life. The Novus Ordo Saeculorum, the New Order of the Ages, will rule through the power of life and death Scorpio, which is on the 10th , through behaviour modification, cloning, genetic engineering, mind control and the occult.
Might makes right in this New Age. If the preceding Age produced metaphysical materialists, who duped the people through the opiate of religion, the New Age will produce materialist metaphysicians who will make the preceding political power elites look like inept apprentices.